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Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.10.27 16:09:00 -
[1]
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More lvl4 agents:
I've said somewhere above that we want to normalize the risk-reward ratio of level 4's, so this would fall under that hat.
This is why you shouldn't touch level 4s. Think of the newbs!
Rokh Level 4 runner.
Maelstrom Level 4 Runner.
Raven Level 4 Runner.
All scanned within very short period.
My other good reason is outlined here.
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"There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?" |
Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.10.28 02:07:00 -
[2]
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If you move all the level 4s to low sec, then they'll move to level 3s. There is nothing you can do that will get many of the mission runners to move to unsafe space.
Look at level 5s. Nobody does them because of the risk involved.
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They want the ability to log into the game, play a couple hours a day without to much harassment, make enough isk to get new ships and skills, and log out. If you change the game enough to where they can no longer do that, they'll just move on to the next game.
Yep. Original post linked to the very point of how it would hurt 0.0 signficantly if they changed level 4s.
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So they do level 3s. Cool. What's the problem?
I run level 4s all the time. If level 4s are no longer available... I quit eve. I'm not really in the mood to go to 0.0 and low sec is completely a non-option because of hictors.
Nobody will do level 3s.
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But would you fly a multi-billion ISK pimped out pwnmobile for ratting like you can for highsec missions?
But if not these level 4 runners... who do these 0.0 people sell their Gist xl shield boosters to? Nobody can practically use them. Thusly 0.0 cant sell these top of the line mods to anyone. Thusly nobody buys them. Prices crash. 0.0 becomes even more worthless for non-moon mining.
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IMO something needs to be done to nerf level 4s in highsec while making 0.0/lowsec more attractive. double/triple LP in lowsec?
Um that's how it is already. Level 5s give you 60,000lp per mission even. Where the best lvl4 gives 6000-7000 at most.
You cant make 0.0/lowsec more attractive. It's already pretty damn good. People dont go there to do missions; not because lvl4s are more valuable but because they refuse to leave high sec. Meaning by removing lvl 4s will mean only 1 thing.
These people who are quiting take their 15-30 billion in their wallet, buy up core materials and such and quit. Destroying the market in doing so. If 15billion is enough to manipulate... billions and billions sitting dormant right now leaving the game can do serious damage.
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Maybe make it so that meta 3 and 4 stuff is only dropped in lowsec or nullsec? It wouldn't be too much of a nerf on lvl 4s in highsec while giving a fairly good reason to run them in low/nullsec.
This is what I said in my other thread. But make it so mission rats cant drop them at all. You have to rat or do exploration to get them.
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"There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?" |
Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.10.28 05:24:00 -
[3]
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I would do level 5s if there happend to be a level 5 agent in my pocket, sadly there is not Sad (or did I just never look Shocked)
afaik there's only 1 region per faction who has lvl5.
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if they move level 4s out of highsec and nerf local well then Laughing game over dude.
they only plan to nerf 0.0 local not low sec. But ya lvl 4s only in low sec means... nobody does lvl 4s. nobody makes isk in high sec and people cant buy anything from 0.0 and low sec. Meaning the value of 0.0 crashes immensely.
To be fair zulupark said...
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High-sec nerfed: Personally I'd like to see more lvl4 agents move more to low-sec, but that's just my personal opinion. This is a very delicate system and any kind of interference with it needs careful consideration. So far we haven't looked at it in any seriousness.
Technically he didnt say all. So really the plan would be to cause even more concentration mission hubs.
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that would probably get more outcry than the nano nerf, and likely a bigger response.
you need to realize that most people are in high sec... most people are never going to lowsec again.
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hictors are a non issue, just make sure it is blue. oh that's right lv4s are a single player game.... hics are scary
I lived in Oto-Tama area for a long time. With the advent of hictors... Im never going back to low sec.
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yay for stupid mission runners massively overpaying for their shield boosters when t2 gear will do it fine.
you kidding? gist xl boosters are epic over t2. They easily are permarun with far better defense then t2. That's huge difference.
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and level 4s are easily soloable,
Those 3 fits I show there... are successful fits @ lvl4s. they came back with mission loot.
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level 5s are usually a small gang operation,
not really. Usually 1 person with an alt. Nighthawk or similar passive tank.who is accompanied by a dps dealer who has 1-2 remote reps.
Though there are a couple lvl 5s where you can use a carrier and smartbomb the entire field no problem. Toooo much risk usually to do that. The dps dealer also cant be a dominix or something because drones cant be used generally.
Now CCP could change this; CCP could design a ship... somewhere inbetween a capital and battleship. Who is stealthy who could also be apart of the Blackops group. Who deals big damage. But cant be scanned down. So the ship in a safespot literally can be considered cloaked.
this ship then can run missions or lay siege to pos modules... perhaps such as the cyno jammer. This ship is a capital ship who has to jump around using regular cynos... or use the covert bridge.
Only then would level 4-5s be done in low sec. It's obvious that such a ship would never be made.
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splitting that reward. as for the loot/bounty/mission isk reward I don't know how it balances.
When you use alts... you still split the money to yourself.
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if meta 3/4 only drops in low/nullsec well lets just say I want to start buying up arby/prototype/scout stuff now
I dunno about low sec. Lowsec shouldnt be that good. Perhaps they can get 250mm prototype gauss guns and such. 0.0 indeed.
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"There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?" |
Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.10.28 09:34:00 -
[4]
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all i can see is change after change in what appears to be a move to shift the entire paradigm of the game. not that it's necessarily a bad thing, but i would get more comfortable vibes if the changes were coming from someone that had a good track record (that would include the actual presence of a track record!)
This is true. Essentially by moving level 4s to low sec. It would mean that many people quit the game. While others stick around... but now cant generate any real isk. Meaning they never buy officer mods. Officer mods drop in price like mad. Eventually equalizing where 0.0 is indeed the best isk/hour potential... you have a grand stalemate of loss.
Essentially reaching the point where 0.0 isnt tenable and high sec level 3s become the next big isk flood. Which after the big drop in isk influx... everything deflates like mad. Seriously along the lines of 60-80% deflation.
Gist c-type xl shield booster is 1.6billion now. It will be much closer to less than 500mil.
As 1.6billion is to level 4s as about 500mil is to level 3s.
Then you have the problem of people who have already amassed billions for themselves. Basically Trophy collections will become epic.
On the otherhand with such huge deflation. 100bil-30bil for supercaps is far less tenable. Meaning that only those with insane amounts of isk already can manage such things. Titans themselves will be nuts. Having such a lower capable foe means that titans arent destroyed.
Eventually... Bob and Goons will be the ones who control vast empires. who cant be challenged because you need big isk to fight big isk.
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but yeah, I am shocked at the OP... I mean, I would be more concerned about the missiles changes (if I do missions) than the speed changes....
Op here :)
For the most part I fly dominix and soon Ishtar. My CNR is for the most part unchanged in the missile changes. Torp golems infact appear to have more dps and thusly run missions even faster. Assuming t2 ammo.
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No you don't, you just think about you little pleasures killing defenseless ships. Why don't you go out and club a baby seal, it's the same thing.
Carebears are like baby seals? Alright it's true.
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Move lvl5's to high sec instead, I'd love to do them.
Never going to happen.
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Since a t2 xl booster is more than enough tank for any lvl 4 mission, you are basically paying 1 bill to be lazy and not manage cap.
You are quite correct. Personally I just use CN xl booster on my cnr.
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You obviously have no idea how much organization and risk comes with conquering and holding good 0.0 space. If they have it so good, go take some space for yourself. I mean it's not dangerous at all right? Choose a spot and put down a POS and set it to claim SOV and tell me how easy you have it.
Technically speaking a great deal of 0.0 is pretty much unclaimed. Rarely have people in it... and if it wasnt for absolutely nuts nano gangs... 0.0 would be significantly safer. Even in the current setup... you can pretty much find yourself a hole in 0.0 plop up a pos and start doing your thing.
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The people that make this claim are usually those that get invited into a large 0.0 alliance and leech easy ISK off the efforts of those who created and held together the organization that took and continues to hold the space that's making those guys rich.
Actually either it's that alliance's fault for being stupid or you are. Big alliances get paid by other groups billions per month to grab a hold of some safe unused space in their space. The fee covers any claim of "leeching" |
Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.10.28 09:52:00 -
[5]
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ALL the ISK I rat in 0.0 goes into ships that I blow up in PVP defense or offense to assist my corp/alliance (and have fun of course).
In my experience good alliances cover 100% of subcapital combat pvp and 33% of capital pvp. So any isk you earn in 0.0 literally stays with you. The alliance itself earns isk from the moons and such it holds. The corps earn isk through bounties/tax or through purchasing and refining the drone alloys. 0.0 is profitable for everyone unless you're in a terrible situation.
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As a side note - anything to make it harder for ninja cloaking Raven ratters in hostile space to rat in relative security I'd probably be all for.
Because you arent the cloaking raven and you want the ability to destroy them. Get a clue.
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The view that 0.0 space is safe in general is a fallacy and fails to account for variables not obvious to the possible perspective of an individual.
If I were to crank open eve right now and check how many active pilots in system or docked and count the systems in 0.0 with NOBODY. How many do you think there are?
How about low sec? Betcha it'll be much harder. Infact when I was in low sec you pretty much 3-5 people in all systems. Though that was caldari space. Amarr space I suspect to be more dead.
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Not sure if you understood what he meant. Yes gist xl boosters are far better than t2. However there is a max difficulty you will generally find in a lvl 4 mission. After a certain point of effectiveness you will be able to complete lvl 4 missions.
As I said... those pics I posted were lvl 4 mission runners... who were successful. My point is that changing level 4s would eliminate these people if risk is increased. OR if reward is drastically dropped the the succesful lvl 4 runners cant fit their ships and also have to do the "shoop da whoop" fit. Nobody buys anything coming from 0.0 Suddenly the value of 0.0 decreases signficantly and then as you said... you barely break even... you will afterwards be very very poor.
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The Gist xl booster will make lvl 4 missions easier. You won't have to pay as much attention to spawn triggers and other "dangers" found in the missions. Basically it makes something not dangerous at all, less dangerous even with lower attention payed to it.
The real point though is that if you change lvl 4s... nobody buys those gist xl boosters... and then you are royally screwed in 0.0
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The confusion for many is why would a gist xl booster be a goal for an EVE player in itself. After it's attained the player can now do what he did before. Is it that now they have the module itself?
The confusion for many is why would a tech2 xl booster be a goal for an EVE player in itself. After it's attained the player can now do what he did before. Is it that now they have the module itself?
Why doesnt he just use a named xl booster... it works... hell that raven doesnt even have a tank at all. Perhaps all lvl 4 mission runners have to fit their ships like that.
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Frankly if lvl 4s were removed and people didn't use gist xl booster in high sec as much (or at all) their price would drop, BUT they would still be used, most likely in PVP and I see nothing wrong with that at all.
You're right people would use them... they'd drop to 500mil or less and people would buy them. They certainly wouldnt be used pvp... 500mil is absolutely nuts. They would be used in lvl3s Except it'll take them 2-3 months to scratch up the isk to get 500mil.
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I don't have any problem with people running missions only in EVE if that's honestly what they find fun.
Running missions gets you isk. You then use that isk to do what you find fun. Personally I think I want to eventually train for thanatos, buy a thanatos, fit it reasonably well. Get out to 0.0 for fun. But I cant fly a thanatos atm. It takes time. |
Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.10.28 10:01:00 -
[6]
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However I also don't see why they feel they the need to make a certain amount of ISK when they very rarely need to replace anything bought.
Says you? With some exceptions obviously. Many mission runners have never broke 1 billion. They play every day... hours everyday. Yet they dont ever seem to break 1 billion. I wonder why that is?
Currently I'm at 1.3 billion. I must have sold the apocs I've built and rigs. I have a feeling my ammo hasnt been touched.
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You can fit a ship capable of running the hardest highest lvl mission in high sec for about 150m or less. Even if the lvl 4 mission rewards were cut in half this amount of ISK could be saved in a matter of weeks or months and now they are capable of accomplishing the hardest thing this type of player will do in their whole EVE career.
Yep and we also cut any isk going to 0.0 people. Their products can sit on the market. Still recovering the loss of purchasing my ship. While the 0.0 moons are still cranking out exactly the same amount... but nobody is buying. So it's just piling up.
Your wallet from all those losses for holding space starts to smart... and manufacturers stop building because their product is on the market at no markup and with no isk they cant buy fuel and minerals. So the miners cant earn as much and the market starts flooding.
What people are supposed to just buy insurance on their ships and fly them into a belt to die? to earn isk?
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I've used lvl 4 missions as a form of PVP funding and probably will again in the future so my point of view isn't formed due to personal gain or convenience. Honestly I'd gain nothing directly by lvl 4s being nerfed
Lots to lose though eh?
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but I think it would force people to make ISK to PVP in a PVP/contested oriented environmen
Yet you just said that you were making no isk by doing that. And you want even more competition over the same resources in 0.0 or low sec? Wow interesting.
Great way to destroy the game. |
Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.10.28 10:52:00 -
[7]
Just to further prove a point.
Active pilots in system or docked.
Notice how this small cross section of 0.0 literally has nobody in it. 100 system not being touched.
How many unclaimed untouched systems there are.
Every one of those grey dots is a system with no pos claiming sov.
Seriously there's so much fighting over resources in 0.0 to claim sovereignty that you dont even use. Infact if you look at some recent fighting. An alliance went and took nearly an entire region. They took losses of 50-100billion in battleships and caps alone. All to get control over the dys and prem moons in there. Now they have to crank those moons out for a period of time... just to break even. Hoping they dont lose the space they just took. That's no fun. In that time... they likely will have conflict again and might be losing their space. |
Jason Edwards
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Posted - 2008.10.28 11:06:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Joshua Calvert
How popular are Level 5 missions?
Note: there's a clue in the answer to the above question.
if they were... nerfing lvl 4s wouldnt be an issue. |
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